Entrevistas

Jeremy Narby

Jeremy Narby grew up in Canada and Switzerland. He studied History at the University of Canterbury and obtained his PhD in anthropology at Stanford University. He lived for two years in the Peruvian Amazon, studying the Ashaninca tribe and their approach in exploiting the amazon jungle natural resources (85.000 species). He has worked since 1989 for Nouvelle Planete, a philanthropic organization in Switzerland. As a result of his studies and experiments in the Peruvian Amazon, he wrote the bestseller "The Cosmic Serpent - DNA and the Origins of Knowledge" (without translation into Portuguese).

Infinito - What does anthropology currently say about the shamans and shamanism?

Jeremy Narby - Anthropologists currently say many different things about shamans. Shamanism is one of the subjects that anthropologists have specialized in studying over the last 120 years. Anthropologists have seen shamans as psychotics, tricksters, creators of order, creators of disorder, intellectuals, translators, shrewd dealers, producers of meaning, healers of the body and of the body politic, and now, as proto-scientists, botanists, zoologists, mythologists and mind doctors.

Infinito - What is your opinion on the subject, considering you lived among the Ashaninca tribe in the Peruvian Amazon, studying them?

Jeremy Narby - I think that some shamans have a deep understanding of life. They use the modification of consciousness to understand the properties of plants, of which they partake. Shamans know that under the surface of life's diversity, there is a hidden unity.

Infinito - How do those shamans acquire KNOWLEDGE on the natural resources the Amazon jungle offers and on the correct use and handling of plants to cure diseases that sometimes are considered incurable by the so called civilized medicine?




Jeremy Narby - That is the key questions. Just what goes on in the mind of a shaman who is having visions of the natural world outside his or her head, is a profound mystery. The human mind is far from understood, and it seems to have mysterious capacities that science has not come to grips with yet, involving intuition, imagination, healing and vision.

Infinito - Please, tell us something about CURARE, one of the great medical discoveries by the shamans.

Jeremy Narby - Curare is a muscle-paralyzing substance which Amazonian hunters developed as a blow-gun poison several millennia ago. It kills tree-borne animals without poisoning the meat. In the 1940s, scientists realized that curare could greatly facilitate surgery of the torso and of the vital organs, because it interrupts nerve impulses and relaxes all muscles, including breathing muscles. Chemists synthesized derivatives of the plant mixture by modifying the molecular structure of one of its active ingredients. Currently, anesthesiologists who "curarize" their patients use only synthetic compounds. There are forty kinds of curare in the Amazon, made from seventy plant species. The kind used in modern medicine comes from the Western Amazon. To produce it, it is necessary to combine several plants and boil them for seventy-two hours, while avoiding the fragrant but mortal vapours emitted by the broth. The final product is a paste which is inactive unless injected under the skin. If swallowed, it has no effect. It is difficult to see how anybody could have stumbled on this recipe by chance experimentation.

Infinito - What was the result of your own experience with Ayahuasca?




Jeremy Narby - It changed my understanding of reality. After my initial ayahuasca experience, I knew that there was more to reality than met the eye.

Infinito - What did the vision of the two immense serpents revealed to you that became the central point of your experience?

Jeremy Narby - It took almost ten years for me to come to terms with that experience. They told me that I was just a a little human being. They put me in my place. They also showed me that giant snake-like forms were buried deep in the heart of life.

Infinito - a) What do the unbelievable and extremely beautiful paintings of Pablo Amaringo reveal to you under the effect of the "Mother of the Mother", that is, the Ayahuasca?

Jeremy Narby - I have seen all kind of elements of molecular biology in Amaringo's painting.

Infinito - b) One thing about those wonderful paintings has struck us: their similarity to the ancient Tibetan TANKAS. How do you explain this?

Jeremy Narby - It is true that the similarities are striking. I think it shows that there is some kind of planetary well of imagery into which visionaries tap, be they in the Amazon or in Tibet.

Infinito - How is the "rational approach" harmful the researchers from other cultures?



Jeremy Narby - I think the rational approach is very valuable. But it also has limits, particularly when studying phenomena involving "non-rational" consciousness, like ayahuasca shamanism. It's like being dry when you are trying to understand swimming. Finally, the best way to know about swimming is to get wet.

Infinito - What is your opinion about the parallels made by the researchers Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince between the KNOWLEDGE acquired by the shamans and the documentation and proofs related to the knowledge acquired by the ancient Egyptian civilization?

Jeremy Narby - I think they are on to something, but more research is needed.

Infinito - In your vision, do nature and DNA have a conscience? How did you come at that hypothesis?

Jeremy Narby - I prefer to talk of an intelligence, rather than a consciousness. It is important to use words careful. By intelligence, I refer to the origin of the word, inter-legere, choose between. Yes, there does seem to be a capacity to take decisions, down inside cells, even at the level of individual proteins. Usually intelligence requires a brain. And brains are made of cells. But there are clear cases of individual cells which behave as if they had a brain. Once again, more research is needed into the decision-making capacities of proteins, cells and living organisms. Nature is clearly not just a physical-chemical phenomenon. How I came to this hypothesis is the story of the entire book.




Infinito - What is your opinion on the use of hallucinogens to obtain knowledge? Do you think their use is valid? Why not use and improve the natural methods, without side effects, through which one can reach the same results obtained with hallucinogens?

Jeremy Narby - Plant hallucinogens can be short-cuts to knowledge, if used wisely. But they are also powerful mind-altering substances, and are not without risk. Anybody who prefers to use methods such as breathing or drumming which lead to similar results should be encouraged to do so. I never encourage anybody to use hallucinogens.

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